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[Music]

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hello and welcome to episode number 37

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of the point of convergence podcast

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as always i am your host exo academian

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when it comes to the history of the ufo

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phenomenon there are a few key players

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who have shaped the nature of the

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conversation

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of those individuals those considered at

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least initially anyway the most

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controversial are the ones who suggested

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an alternative to the popular and in

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many ways ubiquitous extraterrestrial

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hypothesis the notion that alien species

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have traveled to us by traversing vast

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distances of interstellar space

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that initial controversy fell by the

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wayside in many ways as evidence mounted

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over the decades suggesting the eth

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really was if not wrong then woefully

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incomplete

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in terms of explaining the depth and

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breadth of the ufo phenomenon

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a phenomenon that seemed upon closer

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inspection to have much in common with

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tales of encounters with otherworldly

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of course jacques vallee stands out as

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perhaps the most influential in this

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regard

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but standing right alongside him in

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terms of positing an alternate origin

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hypothesis to explain the apparently

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non-human entities visiting and

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interacting with us throughout recorded

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history

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is the figure of john keel

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keel ever a trailblazer sought from the

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outset to study this subject in an

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objective way unprejudiced by the

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prominent theories of his day

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and as he studied this subject in depth

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kiel began to notice peculiar though to

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him unmistakable commonalities behind

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the appearance and behavior of phenomena

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such as ufos and alien beings entails

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from occult literature going back deep

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into the depth of recorded human history

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the crossover elements were so

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overwhelming in scope in fact that this

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recognition ultimately led keel to

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conclude that a common origin was

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responsible for all interactions with

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supposedly otherworldly entities whether

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they be supposed aliens from distant

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planets or goblins arising from the

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keel suggested that these beings were

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not so much distant travelers from

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elsewhere in the fabric of our own

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space-time

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as inter-dimensional sojourners emerging

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from some alternate plane that exists

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right alongside our own

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he termed this vast other place the

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super spectrum

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and he termed the visitors coming from

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this parallel plane the

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ultra-terrestrials

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keel believed even though that term

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belief was loathsome to him in many ways

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that the vastly different entities we've

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experienced over time

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including the craft supposedly

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traversing our skies

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were all manifestations arising from

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this alternate plane of existence

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indeed he even wondered if perhaps one

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central and decidedly superior

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intelligence was responsible for all of

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these manifestations

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manifestations that influenced the

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origins of our ancient religions as well

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as much more recent fields of interest

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and inquiry such as the ufo phenomenon

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what was the historical evidence and

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direct personal experience that led keel

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in this peculiar and at first glance

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perhaps counterintuitive direction

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these are the very matters we'll seek to

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engage with in this

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the 37th episode of the point of

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[Music]

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as i mentioned recently on social media

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after 36 episodes we've covered many of

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the main players in the ufo phenomenon

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in terms of the people who really have

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put together hypotheses that have

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resonated that have really become

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trailblazers in terms of taking this

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conversation in new directions

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that said there has been one other

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person that i have not yet covered that

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is of course john keel and today we will

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rectify that omission

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now keel really is central to this

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conversation and if you're trying to

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understand the ufo phenomenon he's one

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of the people you need to read

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and in terms of this phenomenon and the

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larger context of the super spectrum and

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the other anomalous phenomena that he

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identified as all being part of the same

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thing in his mind

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there are three key books that he wrote

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that you may want to engage with

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these are operation trojan horse the

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classic breakthrough study of ufos

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the mothman prophecies

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and of course a movie was made based on

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that book

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and thirdly the eighth tower on

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ultraterrestrials and the super spectrum

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and we'll touch on all three books today

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but especially the first and the third

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that being operation trojan horse and

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now speaking of the 8th tower i found a

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description by the publisher that really

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gets at the heart not only of this book

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and what it's about but kiel's overall

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hypothesis regarding the ufo phenomenon

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and indeed all paranormal activity

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this is that description quote

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is there a single intelligent force

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behind all religious occult and ufo

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phenomena

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are euphonites leprechauns the loch ness

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monster sasquatch and even satan really

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just beings from another dimension

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are they creations of the mass mind or

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collective unconscious

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or are they a super computer's last

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defense against humanity run amok

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are the radio signals we received from

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outer space actually broadcast from

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ultra-terrestrials

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john keel in his masterpiece the eighth

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tower has his opinions on these and

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other matters

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strange manifestations have haunted

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mankind since prehistoric times

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beams of light voices from the heavens

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and the little people gods and devils

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ghosts and monsters and ufos have all

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had a prominent place in our history and

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legends

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now author kiel an internationally

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renowned authority on the paranormal

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explores these phenomena using

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spine-chilling but true

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case histories to reveal the shocking

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truth about our present position and

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now there's plenty of market speak

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plenty of hyperbole in that description

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but it does get across the main notions

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that keel came to the main notions he

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put forward in terms of his

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understanding of what was going on

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especially this section i quote again

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quote

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is there a single intelligent force

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behind all religious occult and ufo

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phenomena

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are euphonites leprechauns the loch ness

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monster sasquatch and even satan really

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just beings from another dimension

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unquote

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that really does get at the main notion

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that keel came to

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and we'll go into that in depth shortly

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but before we get there let's step back

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a bit and talk about kiel's background

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what kind of life did he live that led

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him to these places led him to these

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now by the way i think it's important to

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understand the background of any author

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that you're reading especially ones you

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begin to take really seriously

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because our backgrounds do shape us the

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contextual milieu that forms us helps

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even determine what kind of hypotheses

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what kind of data we'll even consider

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that's why i think it's important to try

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and understand where people are coming

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from

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now in terms of keel

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in many ways he was perfectly suited for

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a later investigation of the ufo

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phenomenon because he lived a very

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interesting childhood a diverse

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childhood

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he had to spend a lot of time

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entertaining himself

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and so because of that he had an early

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interest for instance in magic and he

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would conduct magic tricks with his

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friends

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but he also was very interested in

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science hard science and he had a good

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understanding of physics

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and also in later trips he made to

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eastern countries such as india

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he recognized right away the revelations

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of quantum physics were remarkably

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similar to the teachings of eastern

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mystical traditions

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and all of this became part of the

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milieu that helped kiel

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attack the question of the ufo

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and to be clear keel saw himself as a

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fortian

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following the work of charles fort who

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lived from 1874 to 1932.

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fort was a pioneering american writer

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and researcher who specialized in

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anomalous phenomena he would consider

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all of it

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and in many ways keel was walking in

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so how was it though that keel became

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interested in ufos and became so

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dedicated to such an exhaustive

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investigation of the ufo phenomenon

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well it all began when he was

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commissioned to write a single article

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but as he began to do research and

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gather data in his objective thorough

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way

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that quickly led to an entire book a

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book we mentioned earlier operation

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trojan horse

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now to his credit kiel didn't want to be

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influenced by existing notions he didn't

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read other authors work because he

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really wanted to look at the data

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objectively

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and determine his own conclusions

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and he very much wanted to write the

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definitive accounting of the ufo

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now of course at the time that keel was

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collecting data he couldn't just jump on

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a search engine and run a quick search

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now he had to do it the old-fashioned

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way he would subscribe to various

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newspapers all across the country and he

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would receive from them any articles

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pertaining to ufo sightings

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and interestingly very much like j ellen

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heineck and jacques villa began

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kiel was initially hopeful and expectant

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that he would determine the

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extraterrestrial hypothesis was the most

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likely explanation for the ufos that

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were being cited

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but as it turns out that wasn't to be

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the case

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just like heinek and valet before him

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when keel really looked at enough data

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and combed through it exhaustively

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he began to question the

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extraterrestrial hypothesis

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ultimately determining that it was

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insufficient and perhaps

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very wrong in terms of actually

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now these were the actual words that

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keel wrote regarding how he came to

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determine that the extraterrestrial

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hypothesis was not the best explanation

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for what was being observed

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quote

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i abandoned the extraterrestrial

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hypothesis in 1967 when my own field

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investigations disclosed an astonishing

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overlap between psychic phenomena and

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ufos

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the objects and apparitions do not

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necessarily originate on another planet

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00:11:53,829 --> 00:11:52,000
and may not even exist as permanent

286
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:53,839
constructions of matter

287
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:55,680
it is more likely that we see what we

288
00:12:01,350 --> 00:11:58,480
want to see and interpret such visions

289
00:12:04,389 --> 00:12:01,360
according to our contemporary beliefs

290
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:06,870
now of course here we're reminded of

291
00:12:10,069 --> 00:12:08,079
jacques vallet

292
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:10,079
again there is plenty of overlap between

293
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:11,839
these two authors

294
00:12:16,710 --> 00:12:13,920
they both recognize that there was a

295
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:16,720
long history of human interaction

296
00:12:21,670 --> 00:12:18,880
with various entities

297
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:21,680
and when you look past the superficial

298
00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:24,160
aspect or the facade nature of the

299
00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:25,680
phenomena

300
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:27,920
both keel and valley determined that

301
00:12:32,069 --> 00:12:30,160
this very well may be the same

302
00:12:35,829 --> 00:12:32,079
underlying intelligence

303
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:35,839
manifesting in different forms over time

304
00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:39,360
and as i just read in some ways it could

305
00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:42,160
be that these others are manifesting in

306
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:45,760
ways that match our contemporary beliefs

307
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:48,720
so our expectations play a role in what

308
00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:51,120
we end up experiencing which again it

309
00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:52,720
sounds similar we've talked about this

310
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:54,720
recently we are co-authors of the

311
00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:57,040
experience in many ways

312
00:13:00,629 --> 00:12:58,560
and it certainly seems to be the case

313
00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:00,639
that this intelligence or some of them

314
00:13:04,790 --> 00:13:02,160
anyway because again i think there's

315
00:13:06,710 --> 00:13:04,800
plural intelligences here

316
00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:06,720
can read our minds understand our

317
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:09,120
history in some ways may understand our

318
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:11,279
unconscious better than we do

319
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:13,120
so it makes sense that they could read

320
00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:14,880
from our background our cultural

321
00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:16,320
expectations

322
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:17,040
and

323
00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:18,560
give us back something that we're

324
00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:21,760
expecting the question of course is why

325
00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:24,079
what is the ultimate aims of such

326
00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:25,440
activity

327
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:31,430
now as i mentioned earlier

328
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:34,800
kiel recognized crossover between the

329
00:13:39,189 --> 00:13:37,120
occult literature and literature behind

330
00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:39,199
the ufo phenomenon

331
00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:41,920
what's interesting is again often your

332
00:13:46,949 --> 00:13:44,880
expectations your biases coming into an

333
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:46,959
investigation will determine what you

334
00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:49,519
end up letting in and that of course has

335
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:51,279
a huge impact on what you end up

336
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:52,800
concluding

337
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:55,680
the thing is within ufology the nuts and

338
00:14:01,350 --> 00:13:58,560
bolts researchers of history tended to

339
00:14:02,790 --> 00:14:01,360
look just at the craft at the sightings

340
00:14:05,189 --> 00:14:02,800
try to find

341
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:05,199
hard objective scientific data like

342
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:06,639
radar readings

343
00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:08,959
soil samples that kind of thing

344
00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:11,920
photographs video even better

345
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:13,920
but of course there's much more to it

346
00:14:19,269 --> 00:14:16,399
than that we've talked about many times

347
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:19,279
on this podcast the psychological

348
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:21,680
aspects the psychic component as jacques

349
00:14:25,189 --> 00:14:23,519
vallee would call it

350
00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:25,199
now what is the occult in case you're

351
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,639
wondering perhaps you don't have a good

352
00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:28,320
grasp on that especially if you're

353
00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:29,760
coming from more of a nuts and bolts

354
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:31,199
perspective

355
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:34,480
a definition of the occult is as follows

356
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:37,279
it is of involving or relating to

357
00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:38,720
supernatural

358
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:42,480
mystical or magical powers or phenomena

359
00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:44,639
that's a definition of the occult

360
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:46,240
now again when you think about many of

361
00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:48,880
the manifestations psychologically

362
00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:51,680
uh in terms of witnesses experiencers

363
00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:54,160
contactees abductees

364
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:56,399
a lot of the experiences sound very

365
00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:00,320
similar to accounts we read in distant

366
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:03,360
occult literature from human history

367
00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:05,279
kiel certainly recognized that and this

368
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,839
is again where his diverse background

369
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:09,839
paid off it helped him recognize

370
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:16,710
now to give you one practical example

371
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:19,600
both keel and valley recognize that

372
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:21,519
abduction reports where people are

373
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:24,000
supposedly taken on board craft and

374
00:15:27,990 --> 00:15:26,160
various strange medical procedures are

375
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:28,000
conducted upon them

376
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:30,800
both of these figures keel and valet

377
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:32,959
recognize that these procedures these

378
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:34,320
experiences

379
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:37,040
bore a remarkable resemblance to various

380
00:15:41,509 --> 00:15:40,320
initiation practices within occult

381
00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:41,519
literature

382
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:43,360
very similar especially once you take

383
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:46,320
away the exterior the facade and you

384
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:48,639
look at what's going on psychologically

385
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:50,399
to the human being

386
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:52,959
and for both keel and valley this was

387
00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:55,839
central what was happening to us how did

388
00:15:59,910 --> 00:15:57,440
it change us

389
00:16:02,949 --> 00:15:59,920
that became central to answering the

390
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:02,959
questions behind the origin and ultimate

391
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:09,829
now as i mentioned in the introduction

392
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:12,800
keel had a keen interest in science and

393
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:15,040
for layman he had a very good grounded

394
00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:18,000
understanding of the most recent trends

395
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:19,920
especially when it came to things like

396
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:22,639
quantum physics as i mentioned

397
00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:24,399
he also had a keen interest in the

398
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,800
electromagnetic spectrum and it was

399
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:28,880
understandings there that led him to

400
00:16:35,110 --> 00:16:31,440
later postulate something like the super

401
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:36,790
and now i'd like to quote from kiel's

402
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:39,040
book the cosmic question

403
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:40,160
quote

404
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:42,160
at this moment you are surrounded by all

405
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:44,720
kinds of energy much of it man-made

406
00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:46,800
vibrating on every frequency from the

407
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:48,560
ultra-high frequencies of modern

408
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:50,720
military radios to the very low

409
00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:53,040
frequencies of generators and telephone

410
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:54,160
lines

411
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:56,000
there are many other forms of energy

412
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:57,600
mixed in as well

413
00:17:02,790 --> 00:16:59,920
and there are as we shall see

414
00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:02,800
forms of energy on such high frequencies

415
00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:04,720
they cannot be detected with even the

416
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:06,959
most sophisticated scientific

417
00:17:10,309 --> 00:17:08,160
instruments

418
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:10,319
if your eyes were tuned beyond the very

419
00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:12,480
narrow confines of the spectrum of

420
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:14,880
visible light you would find yourself

421
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:17,280
looking into a thick fog of dazzling

422
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:19,120
unreal colors

423
00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:22,400
some psychics and ufo percipients have

424
00:17:26,949 --> 00:17:24,799
described these occult colors and they

425
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:26,959
have always been used to symbolize the

426
00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:29,039
supernatural entities

427
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:30,720
if you could peer into this super

428
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:33,360
spectrum you would undoubtedly see some

429
00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:35,919
frightening things strange shapes and

430
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:38,000
eerie ghost-like forms moving through a

431
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:40,960
sea of electrical energy like fish in

432
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:49,190
now according to keel human beings were

433
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:51,760
sometimes able to perceive and even

434
00:17:57,669 --> 00:17:54,880
interact with manifestations coming from

435
00:18:00,630 --> 00:17:57,679
this super spectrum which is all around

436
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:00,640
us even though we usually don't see it

437
00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:02,880
now how do you interact with these kind

438
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:04,320
of entities

439
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:06,640
well for keel the key was to go to a

440
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:08,960
certain window area that's what he

441
00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:10,880
called them i've referred to these

442
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:13,280
before as thin places in fact i did an

443
00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:16,080
entire episode on places like skinwalker

444
00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:18,080
ranch which has been identified as one

445
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:20,480
of these thin places or in kiel's

446
00:18:24,789 --> 00:18:22,880
language a window area

447
00:18:26,549 --> 00:18:24,799
these are areas that have historically

448
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:26,559
shown a higher than average occurrence

449
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:28,640
of paranormal phenomena

450
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:31,520
of all types not just one

451
00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:33,679
and in terms of keel he decided to pick

452
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:35,039
a hot spot

453
00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:37,360
a place that had a remarkable number of

454
00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:39,600
occurrences of various anomalous

455
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:40,960
phenomena

456
00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:42,480
as we all know

457
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:44,720
point pleasant west virginia became the

458
00:18:49,669 --> 00:18:47,440
place that keel went to and this gave

459
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:49,679
rise to the mothman prophecies book that

460
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:56,789
so to be clear to keel whether is

461
00:19:01,350 --> 00:18:58,960
something like a mothman which if you're

462
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,360
not familiar is a giant birdman kind of

463
00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:03,760
creature quite scary looking black with

464
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:06,400
giant wings and red eyes

465
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,480
or interdimensional beings that we've

466
00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:10,799
often thought of as aliens

467
00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:13,360
or even spirits he believes that they

468
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:15,600
were all coming from something he called

469
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:17,760
the super spectrum which is like a

470
00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:19,840
parallel universe that exists right

471
00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:21,520
alongside our own

472
00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:23,640
and these others that he termed

473
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:26,320
ultraterrestrials were able to change

474
00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:28,880
their vibrational rate and by doing this

475
00:19:33,590 --> 00:19:31,520
they could appear and disappear in terms

476
00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:33,600
of what we could perceive they would

477
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:36,000
come in and out of our reality by

478
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:43,190
as i mentioned keel came up with this

479
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:45,440
term ultra-terrestrial

480
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:47,600
and interestingly that term has come

481
00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:50,000
into vogue more recently

482
00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:52,320
partly because people like luis elizondo

483
00:19:56,950 --> 00:19:54,160
have given hints in terms of what they

484
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:56,960
found in the atip program that suggests

485
00:20:02,549 --> 00:19:59,600
that these others may be here already

486
00:20:04,830 --> 00:20:02,559
and perhaps have been here all along

487
00:20:07,110 --> 00:20:04,840
but how did keel come up with this term

488
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:07,120
ultra-terrestrial well interestingly

489
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:09,520
keel was a radiology consultant at one

490
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:10,640
point

491
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,679
now ultraviolet rays are just outside

492
00:20:17,909 --> 00:20:15,600
our perceptual range

493
00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:17,919
perhaps that's why he coined this term

494
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:20,240
to describe entities that are here in

495
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:23,600
our midst but usually not perceivable by

496
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:24,640
us

497
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,559
he also saw ultraterrestrials as

498
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:28,559
shapeshifters because ultimately it was

499
00:20:33,270 --> 00:20:30,640
a manifestation not necessarily

500
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:33,280
something in quote-unquote objective

501
00:20:38,149 --> 00:20:35,840
reality in other words don't get too

502
00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:38,159
attached to the form that would be

503
00:20:45,909 --> 00:20:43,350
and now i'd like to quote a section from

504
00:20:46,789 --> 00:20:45,919
his book the eighth tower

505
00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:46,799
quote

506
00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:49,760
this super spectrum is the source of all

507
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:52,080
paranormal manifestations from

508
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:54,880
extrasensory perception esp

509
00:21:00,390 --> 00:20:57,600
to flying saucers little green men and

510
00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:00,400
tall hairy monsters it is hard to pin

511
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:03,120
down scientifically because it is extra

512
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:05,520
dimensional meaning that it exists

513
00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:08,240
outside our own space-time continuum yet

514
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:11,120
influences everything within our reality

515
00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:16,230
now unlike some researchers keel was

516
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:18,720
hesitant to draw strong conclusions

517
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:21,360
regarding the ultimate intentions of

518
00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:23,120
this intelligence

519
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:25,120
but he did believe that throughout the

520
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:27,840
course of human history one intelligence

521
00:21:32,789 --> 00:21:30,080
may very well be responsible for all

522
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:32,799
manifestations again across history

523
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:35,280
including cross-cultural history so

524
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:37,679
every civilization across the face of

525
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:41,120
the earth has experienced manifestations

526
00:21:45,270 --> 00:21:43,280
from this one intelligence according to

527
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:45,280
kiel's perspective anyway

528
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:47,760
that of course includes our ancient

529
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:50,159
historic religions he believes that

530
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:52,240
manifestations happen thousands of years

531
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:55,120
ago and based on these experiences

532
00:22:00,470 --> 00:21:58,320
people formed religions and dogmas that

533
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:00,480
developed from these experiences and of

534
00:22:05,110 --> 00:22:03,039
course billions of people even today

535
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:05,120
still follow the religions based on

536
00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:07,760
those initial manifestations

537
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:09,760
and regarding those manifestations there

538
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:12,240
are many ways they have occurred across

539
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:18,390
for instance we would apply this to the

540
00:22:24,549 --> 00:22:21,440
manifestation of things like monsters

541
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:24,559
ghosts and demons and angels

542
00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:27,039
the fairy faith in middle europe

543
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:28,720
vampire legends

544
00:22:35,110 --> 00:22:31,760
the mystery airships in 1897

545
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:35,120
the mystery aeroplanes of 1930

546
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:37,760
and the mystery helicopters of later

547
00:22:43,029 --> 00:22:40,000
anomalous creature sightings poltergeist

548
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:43,039
phenomena balls of light and of course

549
00:22:47,909 --> 00:22:44,720
last but not least

550
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:50,549
now earlier on i mentioned what kill

551
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:52,960
termed window areas and that i have

552
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,440
termed thin places

553
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,280
again this is where supposedly a lot of

554
00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:59,280
this anomalous phenomena ends up

555
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:00,880
manifesting

556
00:23:05,590 --> 00:23:03,360
the question might arise in your mind

557
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:05,600
how do these places form in the first

558
00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:06,640
place

559
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:09,440
well according to kiel it may be based

560
00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:12,320
on various magnetic fluctuations around

561
00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:13,520
the world

562
00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:15,440
and i want to quote again from his book

563
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:18,320
the eighth tower on ultraterrestrials

564
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:21,039
and the super spectrum quote

565
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:23,360
ancient priests and builders must have

566
00:23:27,430 --> 00:23:25,440
known about the earth's magnetism and

567
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:27,440
its strange fluctuations

568
00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:30,080
they located their temples mounds and

569
00:23:35,909 --> 00:23:32,960
pyramids in the dead center of magnetic

570
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:35,919
anomalies and they laid out long arrow

571
00:23:43,029 --> 00:23:38,240
straight tracks or lays

572
00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:45,669
and as a quick aside i'd like to say i

573
00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:47,360
think there is something to this in

574
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:50,400
terms of the anomalies and ways we may

575
00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:52,640
be able to track these kinds of places

576
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:54,000
around the world

577
00:23:59,029 --> 00:23:55,840
find some sort of commonality between

578
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:59,039
them from a scientific perspective

579
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:00,960
now in terms of a window area

580
00:24:05,669 --> 00:24:03,279
specifically kiel as we mentioned

581
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:05,679
earlier picked point pleasant west

582
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:08,080
virginia which of course is famous for

583
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:09,919
the mothman sightings

584
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,240
but there were a wide variety of

585
00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:14,720
manifestations going on at the time that

586
00:24:19,750 --> 00:24:17,200
kiel set up a new home base there

587
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:19,760
everything from again monsters to

588
00:24:24,789 --> 00:24:22,480
spirits to ufos

589
00:24:26,310 --> 00:24:24,799
to the men in black

590
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:26,320
again we haven't discussed the men in

591
00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:29,039
black much on this podcast but they are

592
00:24:33,510 --> 00:24:31,679
a central part of the ufo phenomenon

593
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:33,520
there's lots of questions regarding who

594
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:35,840
they ultimately are are they government

595
00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:38,080
agents are they manifestations from the

596
00:24:43,110 --> 00:24:41,200
super spectrum as kiel would suggest

597
00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:43,120
who knows i think there's times where it

598
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:44,400
may be both

599
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:46,880
but let's get to keel's experience with

600
00:24:56,549 --> 00:24:54,149
quote in the 1960s the men in black led

601
00:24:58,789 --> 00:24:56,559
me on many mary chases

602
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:58,799
with my usual impeccable logic i

603
00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:00,400
reasoned that i would never be able to

604
00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:03,120
catch a flying saucer but if the mib

605
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:05,440
were real and the testimony of many

606
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:07,919
people indicated they were i might be

607
00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:10,080
able to head them off at some cosmic

608
00:25:15,029 --> 00:25:12,240
pass and force their big black

609
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:15,039
automobile to the side of the road

610
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:17,360
on a number of occasions i actually saw

611
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:20,080
the phantom cadillacs as advertised

612
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:21,520
complete with sinister looking

613
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,799
oriental-like passengers in black suits

614
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:26,880
on long island following the directions

615
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,360
given me in an anonymous phone call i

616
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:31,360
pursued one of these cars down a dead

617
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:33,760
end road where it seemingly vanished

618
00:25:37,990 --> 00:25:36,480
into thin air there were no side roads

619
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:38,000
or turn offs

620
00:25:43,029 --> 00:25:40,080
on other days i arrived at witnesses

621
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:43,039
homes only minutes after the mib had

622
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:44,320
driven off

623
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:46,720
their empty threats passed along by

624
00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:50,159
concern persipients build my mailbox and

625
00:26:01,269 --> 00:25:58,710
the men in black certainly a bizarre

626
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,279
aspect of the ufo phenomenon

627
00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:03,679
apologies if you got into this topic

628
00:26:08,789 --> 00:26:06,080
with a nuts and bolts interest in flying

629
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:08,799
saucers because as i've said before the

630
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:11,039
further you get into it the deeper the

631
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:12,880
rabbit hole goes

632
00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:14,720
who are these men in black we don't

633
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:16,159
really know

634
00:26:20,070 --> 00:26:18,000
i would certainly suggest they are not

635
00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:20,080
conventional human beings not all of

636
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:22,159
them even though sometimes government

637
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:24,720
agents might pose like them

638
00:26:30,710 --> 00:26:27,440
but why these men in black appear so

639
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:30,720
strangely and act so strangely is hard

640
00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:33,360
to pin down but i would suggest there is

641
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:35,600
a reason behind that there is a meaning

642
00:26:41,430 --> 00:26:39,200
even behind the unhuman-like aspect of

643
00:26:43,110 --> 00:26:41,440
their demeanor

644
00:26:45,029 --> 00:26:43,120
again i don't know what it is but i'm

645
00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:45,039
sure there must be a reason if they

646
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:47,520
wanted to appear perfectly human they

647
00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:49,200
could

648
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,240
now

649
00:26:54,310 --> 00:26:52,240
what kiel is coming to time and time

650
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:54,320
again what he's suggesting to us is

651
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:56,640
reality is not as simple as we think it

652
00:27:00,870 --> 00:26:59,200
is we shouldn't trust just what our eyes

653
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:00,880
are telling us

654
00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:03,200
interestingly since the time of keel

655
00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:05,520
science has moved closer and closer to

656
00:27:09,669 --> 00:27:07,360
this perspective

657
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:09,679
and donald hoffman has done some great

658
00:27:13,830 --> 00:27:12,400
work talking about reality being a

659
00:27:15,909 --> 00:27:13,840
construction

660
00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:15,919
done by our minds rather than something

661
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:22,950
and in support of that i'd like to quote

662
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:25,120
from donald hoffman's book the case

663
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:27,600
against reality why evolution hid the

664
00:27:31,269 --> 00:27:29,760
truth from our eyes

665
00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:31,279
quote

666
00:27:36,549 --> 00:27:33,919
stephen pinker sums up the argument well

667
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:36,559
we are organisms not angels and our

668
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:39,440
minds are organs not pipelines to the

669
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:40,399
truth

670
00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:43,039
our minds evolved by natural selection

671
00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:45,279
to solve problems that were life and

672
00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:47,840
death matters to our ancestors

673
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:52,159
not to commune with correctness unquote

674
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:53,840
also he pointed out

675
00:27:58,389 --> 00:27:55,840
what we call reality consists of an

676
00:28:01,909 --> 00:27:58,399
elaborate paper mache construction of

677
00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:01,919
imagination and theory filled in between

678
00:28:07,269 --> 00:28:05,679
a few iron posts of observation

679
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:07,279
he also added

680
00:28:12,549 --> 00:28:10,000
quote as einstein put it time and space

681
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:12,559
are modes by which we think and not

682
00:28:17,669 --> 00:28:14,799
conditions in which we live

683
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:17,679
unquote

684
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:19,360
all that is to say there's plenty of

685
00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:21,919
data coming from hard science like that

686
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:24,799
done by people like donald hoffman

687
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:27,039
reminding us that what we experience as

688
00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:30,399
reality is really anything but what we

689
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:32,559
experience is more like an interface

690
00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:34,720
that our brains have put together a

691
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:37,039
construct that helps us move through the

692
00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:38,880
world and survive

693
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:41,840
the evolutionary process produce this

694
00:28:45,669 --> 00:28:43,520
but we should not confuse this for

695
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:45,679
what's actually out there

696
00:28:50,389 --> 00:28:47,520
and of course this supports the notion

697
00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:50,399
that kiel put forward that reality is

698
00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:52,640
much broader and deeper than we can

699
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:57,029
and now i'd like to offer a few

700
00:29:00,149 --> 00:28:58,399
concluding thoughts for your

701
00:29:02,389 --> 00:29:00,159
consideration

702
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:02,399
first off i'm very thankful for john

703
00:29:06,789 --> 00:29:04,640
keel and the work he did he helped to

704
00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:06,799
expand this conversation and to take it

705
00:29:09,909 --> 00:29:08,799
in some new directions that were very

706
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:09,919
fruitful

707
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:11,120
as i say

708
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:13,279
he was ahead of his time and evidence

709
00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:15,440
that has arisen since then in fields

710
00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:17,840
like quantum physics certainly supports

711
00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:20,159
many of his notions certainly points in

712
00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:22,159
that direction anyway

713
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:24,480
now like valet

714
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:26,399
keel believed there was a subversive

715
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:28,080
influence working to change our

716
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:30,799
civilization even though he was agnostic

717
00:29:36,389 --> 00:29:33,120
as to what that purpose ultimately was

718
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:36,399
or what the aim of that process was

719
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:38,799
but this is what he wrote quote

720
00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:41,279
the human race is being reprogrammed

721
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:43,440
young people everywhere suddenly became

722
00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:46,720
pacifists in the 1960s after millennium

723
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:48,080
of violence

724
00:29:53,029 --> 00:29:50,240
our world was invaded but not by the

725
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:53,039
hordes of martians and venusians

726
00:29:57,510 --> 00:29:54,559
envisioned by the flying saucer

727
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:57,520
believers we were invaded by new ideas

728
00:30:02,149 --> 00:29:59,279
and a new inner structure that would

729
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:02,159
help guide us to the anticipated crises

730
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:04,240
of the 1990s

731
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:06,799
unquote

732
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:09,440
another notion that keel pointed towards

733
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:11,679
many times and i think we should all

734
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:12,880
take to heart

735
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,320
is his cautionary tales regarding dogma

736
00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:18,480
and from his perspective we find it

737
00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:21,200
everywhere in human civilization

738
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:23,120
this is what he wrote in his book our

739
00:30:25,669 --> 00:30:24,640
haunted planet

740
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:25,679
quote

741
00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:28,240
we believe our history books in fact

742
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:30,640
many millions of people still cling to

743
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:32,320
the thoroughly discredited religious

744
00:30:36,549 --> 00:30:34,720
belief that mankind is only four

745
00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:36,559
thousand years old

746
00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:38,960
science labors to ignore the mounting

747
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:40,960
evidence that we may not be the only

748
00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:43,919
intelligent life form on this planet

749
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:45,200
unquote

750
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:47,039
so what i appreciate about that quote

751
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:49,520
he's pointing to both religion

752
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:53,440
and science or as its practice scientism

753
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:56,480
where it adopts its own dogmatic views

754
00:31:02,070 --> 00:30:59,679
we find it in both of these fields again

755
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,080
this is not unique to religion or to

756
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:04,559
science it's something common to human

757
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:07,200
beings and we should always be wary of

758
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:13,269
now one area where i perhaps disagree

759
00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:16,320
with kiel is regarding his conclusion or

760
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:18,880
at least his strong suspicion that one

761
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:21,360
intelligence may be responsible for all

762
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:23,840
of the anomalous phenomena we've

763
00:31:27,269 --> 00:31:25,679
perceived over the course of human

764
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:27,279
history

765
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:29,919
this is what i would say regarding that

766
00:31:35,269 --> 00:31:32,080
the ufo phenomenon is undoubtedly

767
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:35,279
complex but that said many make it even

768
00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:37,760
more convoluted by sometimes

769
00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:39,120
unconsciously

770
00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:40,880
trying to make sense of diverse

771
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:44,240
phenomena and a wide array of behaviors

772
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:46,880
as if a singular non-human group or

773
00:31:52,389 --> 00:31:49,600
entity is responsible

774
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:52,399
i think that's a mistaken notion and it

775
00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:54,720
comes from our tendency to want to

776
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:01,509
so that said why would someone

777
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:03,919
experience something like alien contact

778
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:06,240
and poltergeist activity for instance

779
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:08,640
this happens to many experiencers

780
00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:10,799
sometimes people experience the others

781
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:13,440
and then the dead deceased human beings

782
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:14,399
appear

783
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:16,799
or they develop abilities along the side

784
00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:19,279
spectrum as we've discussed before

785
00:32:24,389 --> 00:32:22,480
how does this occur why does it occur

786
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:24,399
i would suggest it's not because one

787
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:26,960
intelligence is manifesting in all these

788
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:28,559
different ways

789
00:32:33,029 --> 00:32:30,960
i look at it more like the phenomena are

790
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:33,039
related because of a door that has

791
00:32:36,549 --> 00:32:34,000
opened

792
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:36,559
and a door in us

793
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:39,120
once that divide has become porous that

794
00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:40,960
divide between

795
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:44,000
our hard-line reality or our perception

796
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:46,320
of it and these other planes once that

797
00:32:51,029 --> 00:32:48,399
has become porous the membrane between

798
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:51,039
those two places or between our place

799
00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:52,559
and many places

800
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:55,039
then all sorts of phenomena can start

801
00:32:59,110 --> 00:32:56,640
interacting with us it doesn't

802
00:33:03,350 --> 00:32:59,120
necessarily have to be originating from

803
00:33:08,149 --> 00:33:05,110
lastly i would just like to say that i

804
00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:08,159
think people like keel and valley are

805
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:10,240
definitely onto something when they

806
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:12,799
point to the primary importance of the

807
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:15,440
way that human beings are changed by

808
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:16,880
these experiences

809
00:33:21,830 --> 00:33:18,960
not just changed behaviorally in the

810
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:21,840
short term but even in the long term

811
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:25,039
our perspectives change drastically

812
00:33:29,830 --> 00:33:27,360
and for those of us in the west the goal

813
00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:29,840
may be to unravel or at least to loosen

814
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:31,840
the chords around our current

815
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:34,480
mechanistic materialist paradigm of

816
00:33:41,669 --> 00:33:39,269
even when it comes to the trickster

817
00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:41,679
element of the phenomenon that keel ran

818
00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:43,760
into many times

819
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:45,760
we would do well to remember that it has

820
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:47,760
been suggested that the trickster

821
00:33:52,789 --> 00:33:50,320
element arises when a civilization has

822
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:52,799
become too attached to a particular

823
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:55,519
perspective it becomes too confident in

824
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:57,519
its worldview

825
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:00,559
it in many ways undermines and mocks a

826
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:02,080
current perspective

827
00:34:09,109 --> 00:34:04,399
so as to birth the possibility of a

828
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:11,750
and on that note we've come to the close

829
00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:13,520
of another edition of the point of

830
00:34:17,829 --> 00:34:15,280
convergence podcast

831
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:17,839
as always let's keep this conversation

832
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:21,200
going and growing but until next time

833
00:34:26,069 --> 00:34:23,119
friends from deep within the blue ridge

834
00:34:32,879 --> 00:34:26,079
mountains of north carolina this is exo